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The Advaita Show #028 – No Guru Required
Cam in San Fran
October 25, 2006Your Chance To Come On The Advaita Show
November 30, 2006[audio:http://advaita.thepodcastnetwork.com/audio/tpn_advaita_20061027_028.mp3]
OR DOWNLOAD THE ADVAITA SHOW HERE
We’re back! Well kinda sorta. I’m hanging out in Carmel, California with my peep Steve Witt (who was on the show back in January) and he WON’T SHUT UP ABOUT ADVAITA so I thought I might as well turn the microphone on and record some of it. We’ve been laughing so hard about the whole thing it’s been a lot of fun. So there is no Bob on this show, no Eliot, nobody who is enlightened, nobody who has “the understanding”, nobody at all in fact. Just a couple of dudes, sitting drinking tequila, having a laugh.
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87 Comments
I enjoyed the show. Hope other shows will follow.
Finally – we get an advaita show that is not dependent upon the ‘guru’ concept. Cameron, congratulations, I think you may have cracked it.
Next time, can we have one without you or Steve? I’m thinking the John Cage advaita remix…
Cheers,
/J
Outstanding!
Wonderful format and great energy.
Two inches off the ground.
Sure jason, you mean like a show which consists of 4’33” of silence? Let’s try that!
Great show. The thing I miss most about the program is the friendly jawing between friends and sharing of their insighs and experiences. I’m not expecting some grand new revelation about the topic at this point.
Great show! There is so much to discuss! Those personal Advaita anecdotes are exactly the kind of thing I hoped to hear from the earlier shows. Cam, can you record phone interviews with John Wheeler and some of those other Advaitan “gurus”? Make it will Sailor Bob jealous enough to return to the airwaves! Hmm. Anyway, that was fun, and insightful, so more please!
Actually Steve and I are catching up with Wheeler this week in San Fran so no doubt a show will come out of that.
Uncle Fester (Bob) jealous!? That’s like Yoda getting stumped by a math problem.
Besides, what does Fester know or have that you do not?
“Do or do not!” Yoda
Cameron — I think a show with you and Steve and John W. would be great!
Enjoyed listening to you and Steve shoot the breeze.
Cameron Says: Actually Steve and I are ctching up with Wheeler this week in San Fran so no doubt a show will come out of that. ”
Good stuff, I guess I can finally take the pins out of your voodoo doll.
By the way I heard ‘the singularity’ referred to the other day as “the rapture for nerds”, thought you would get a kick out of that one.
Thanks again for the shows. Everyone should check out the other shows like Father Bob.
By the way, Steve, I enjoyed hearing you speak. I’m an Alan Watts junkie myself—read most of his books in 2000. Author Tom Robbins listed “The Book” as one of the top 10 books a person should read if they want to become “enlightened”.
I also recommend Watts books, “This is it”, and “The Wisdom of Insecurity”.
But it’s his lectures that bring it home. There’s one on iTunes that is phenomenal called “Do you do IT, or does IT do YOU?”
You know, it was Alan Watts who shifted everything for me. Just by asking one question / making one statement. In one of his lectures, “Playing the Human Game”, he says something like, (and I’m paraphrasing badly here) “You aren’t like a bird flying onto a dead tree. You’re like a leaf that grows out of the tree. You are what the whole Universe is doing. An apple tree APPLES, and the earth just PEOPLES!”
Mark, I have those same lectures and adore them…him, Watts. So sometime it’s you and me and whoever shows up, with whatever drink of choice, or not, listening to Alan Watts…sweetness, THAT.
Tell me, if you — and anyone reading this — could sit any three people down in a room (Watts, Christ, Wei Wu Wei, Bob, John Wheeler, Bankei, M. Eckhart) and “have a chat” whom would you select?
Impossible, me thinks, as so many have added to this beautiful discussion in progress that will, by its very understadning, never end and never get anywhere.
Cool, and love.
my typo in unnerstanning was intentional…not.
Hi all. I stumbled across the show a little more than a month ago, then fevorishly devoured all the episodes within about a week. Since, I’ve checked back every once in a while despite the good bye just in case and it was great to discover this latest episode. I say keep em’ coming with or without Bob because they are great uplifting entertainment! Many thanks!
You must have something going on…my dog(Buddy)went nuts hearing who ever he was hearing,when he heard whoever he was hearing.I mean,I think it was a positive reaction from him.Can’t really say for sure,since I have to interpret everything he says,for him,for me.At least he didn’t bite my f’ing leg.
Ah Wyatt, you have devoured the episodes, but have the episodes devoured You?
Both enlightening and entertaining – thanks guys.
Helen in LA
Alan Watts on appling – as illustrated by Trey Parker & Matt Stone: now *there* is a couple of enlightened dudes…
http://www.northwestern.edu/episcopal/flash/AW01.swf
Cheers,
/J
The Awesome Advaita Show! I loved Steve, and like someone said, the whole “energy” was just great. I hope the meeting with Wheeler is cool and also that you have a lot of fun.
It`s so great to hear you talk about this again Cameron!!!
And Steve I love Watts too, he is one of the few guys that helped me understand Zen and Zazen a bit more.
Thanks guys
I enjoyed that Cameron too. I look forward to hearing you chat with Wheeler. Hearing you chat with Brian/Naama here in SF would be cool too!
Mike
great stuff
🙂
Why does “The Advaita Show” logo/banner picture look like something from a horror movie promo?
Thanks Cameron,
Great advaitatainnment as always. Bring it on!
I think Steve’s comment which put Tony Parsons and Bob Adamson into the same basket is misleading to those who want to learn more about Advaita and shows that Steve doesn’t really know what he’s talking about at all. Bob Adamson and Tony Parsons, to me have different approaches.
Tony Parsons is an outspoken voice for the “you’re already there, so you don’t need to do anything” school ( otherwise known as NEO-Advaita ). And NEO-Advaita is not the same as traditional Advaita. Unfortunately, as far as I can see, NEO-Advaita just leads to lots of egos who just THINK they are enlightened…. but aren’t really….. what a nightmare! And that’s not what Advaita’s about.
Bob on the otherhand, whilst yes, says that ‘you are already there’…. emphasises the non-conceptual PRE-THOUGHT KNOWING which is required for self-realisation to occur.
I can see why Steve got confused, because on the surface they sound the same…. but nothing could be further from the truth.
see http://www.nonduality if you want further clarification about NEO-advaita’s downfalls.
……that’s http://www.nonduality.info
Sunyata, are you suggesting that Tony Parsons’ teaching leads to egos that aren’t illusory?
Hi Cameron….
I was waiting for that one!
An ‘ego’ is not a thing… it’s merely a misidentification.
And with the intellectual approach of just thinking that ‘you’ are ‘there’ that MISIDENTIFICATION just continues.
By the way… I think the shows you did with Bob were great.
🙂
“The whole of it is [imagination]. Even space and time are imagined. All existence is imaginary.”
Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj
http://www.mpeters.de/nisargadatta/index.cfm
So, s-mu, maybe in this context, if that source works for you, we can remember that if non-duality has any truth at all, neither Bob nor Tony exist as anything other than THAT — nor anything else in fact. So not only would Bob not mind being mentioned along side Tony, as Bob and I chatted about Tony a bit when I was at Bob’s house, but also Bob would point out, as he has many times on Cameron’s fine broadcast, that nobody has ever gone beyond no-thing.
Call it Bob’s no-thing, or Tony’s or the Niz’s — or Santa’s or S-mu’s for all I care, it is what it is.
Love.
If Tony Parsons is heard it is not that you are already there
but that there simply is no you
Who will do what ?
The teachings on nonduality.info seem to be based on the principle that the Niz apparently chanted and meditated. I understand he also smoked until it came out his arse and probably masturbated on a regular basis, would this also be mandatory. ?
Cam,
Did you have any luck with the show with John Wheeler?
I’m hungry for more pointers!
Cam & Steve,
I bought Guy Smith’s book since the podcast and it’s great so far.
Thanks yall,
corey
WOW !!!
I *LOVE* the Advaita Show! I listened all episodes last week (a bit late, yes). The last show ‘sans guru’ was sooo good…! Excellent quotes from those books.
Pointers & Non Seriousness seem to go together perfectly. Well at least how you do it Cameron. More, please! Thanks.
Koen
Not trying to start a flame war, but I think S-mu might have missed the point himself. My impression is that Tony Parson’s point in informing us that we are already there is to encourage us to stop seeking. That’s certainly something Bob encourages as well.
Great podcast. Thanks for sharing.
Hi DharmaMike,
Don’t worry, I take no offence to decent discussion. And also ask that no one take my comments as antagonistic because they are not in the least. I’ve seen too many of these discussions end up with people hating each other. And if it even comes vaguely close to that you can count me out.
My point is that Tony Parsons, while he IS pointing to SOURCE which is prior to all of the PROJECTIONS (ie: thoughts, etc) seems to have a real ‘bee in his bonnet’ about ANY kind of spiritual method being harmful because it just reinforces the belief in the separate self. I’ve heard him actually get quite worked up and abusive about it.
Steve, I hear you when you say that Tony Parsons is not so much saying ‘you are already there’ ( which of course implies a ‘you’ ! ) ….but that there simply is no you.
It’s true, that seeking IS useless because how can THAT which is doing the SEEING see itself. It’s clearly impossible. So the advice to not seek IS correct. But it’s NOT an invitation to do nothing either.
Everything is ‘IT’, so yes, there is nothing in the PROJECTION that doesn’t come from SOURCE ( self luminous emptiness ). But unless there is abidance as SOURCE the PROJECTION will continue to hold sway. The ‘tail will continue to wag the dog’.
Steve mentioned Bankei… Bankei as far as I know repeated a mantra for years. And the result of it was NONDUAL realisation. But, yes I agree with you Zafire, a mantra is NOT necessary, but nor should it be rubbished because it can be effective.
Bankei’s ‘Unborn’ is the same as when I say ‘SOURCE’. And this ‘Unborn’ is not realised by just THINKING that ‘there is no you’. And yes, nor can it be realised by seeking for it.
I agree that there is no separate you, it’s all one… but my point is to not settle for THE BELIEF that ‘there is no you’. Make sure it is realised non-conceptually that there is no you. And my criticism of some of the people that read Tony’s books and do his courses is that they are settling for the THOUGHT that ‘there is no you’.
The THOUGHT that ‘there is no me’ is JUST A THOUGHT. It is just a PROJECTION. And projections come and go, THEY ARE NOT SOURCE. So, whilst identification with the THOUGHT that ‘there is no me’ can FEEL very liberating and expansive and ‘enlightening’…. it is still nonetheless JUST MORE MISIDENTIFICATION WITH PROJECTION. It might feel like ‘enlightenment’ but it isn’t.
‘Enlightenment for who?’ I hear you ask. Good point! There is no one to be enlightened! But as I said… this ILLUSION that there is separation is very convincing and it takes more than just believing A THOUGHT that ‘there is no me’ for there to be A TRUE REALISATION that there is no one to be enlightened!
When Advaita drifts into the area of just settling for THE THOUGHT ‘there is no me’ it becomes Neo-Advaita … and it is then just a BELIEF SYSTEM. As opposed to Traditional Advaita which settles for nothing less than DIRECT KNOWING, and is therefore PRE-THOUGHT realisation.
The THOUGHT ‘there is no me’ is just a PROJECTION. And to hook onto that THOUGHT (projection) is not ‘enlightenment’… it is just further MISIDENTIFICATION with PROJECTION and therefore a continuation of the ILLUSION of separation…. ( for no one of course! ). And THAT’S my problem with Neo-Advaita’s tendency to allow its students to settle for THE THOUGHT ‘there is no me’. This intellectual attitude doesn’t actually allow an escape from ‘ego’ ( ego= misidentification with projection).
Traditional Advaita makes it very clear that the only place ‘to abide’ is THAT luminous emptiness (SOURCE) from which ALL projections emanate. That is ‘enlightenment’.
Abide as THAT which is PRIOR to ALL thoughts no matter how true or ‘enlightened’ those thoughts may be.
Neo-Advaita rubbishes spiritual methods because it says that methods strengthen the belief in a separate self. But as Neo-Advaita correctly states… there is no separate self…. so what’s the worry?
If an Advaita teacher is truly enlightened, and his pointers are good then yes, those pointers are sufficient. But the danger with the ‘all spiritual methods are bad’ attitude is that it can breed, not in all cases, but in many… a seeker who just settles for THE THOUGHT ‘there is no me’ and doesn’t dig through to the actual realisation that ‘there is no me’.
What the Neo-Advaita perspective fails to realise is that spiritual methods are naturally transcended once a true NON-CONCEPTUAL ‘enlightenment’ takes place.
In it’s fear of spiritual methods Neo-Advaita runs the risk, if the teacher doesn’t have a good non-conceptual KNOWING and therefore his or her pointers are faulty, of having its students identifying with a projection, a THOUGHT, that ‘there is no me’. And that doesn’t lead to ‘enlightenment’ it just leads to more misidentification. There’s no blanket rule here, it depends on the quality of the realisation of the teacher and whether they can guide accurately with their pointers or not.
Now you may be thinking… “but everything is IT… no matter what! So I don’t understand why you are creating a distinction between believing something or ‘knowing’ something. It is all just IT…. no matter what! So just BE! ”
My response to that is…. YES, it IS all just it, no matter what. That’s true. But unless there is a DIRECT, NONCONCEPTUAL realisation you have no proof that it’s true and you’re just taking someone’s word for it. You should never just take someone’s word for it in the spiritual area… that just leads to blind fanaticism. What if they’re wrong???
That’s why I say… even though the statement ‘there is no separate you’ IS correct… DO NOT just accept it in blind faith. It has to be realised DIRECTLY. Then you KNOW 100%.
love,
sunyata
If a method is happening that is whats happening.
From a teaching point of view any method enforces
duality do this get there hence exercising free will to
achieve your destiny. In reality there is neither free
will nor destiny THIS is simply happening
sunyata,
Is there someone there who can choose to accept or not accept what Tony is blabbering about in blind faith or for this matter what you are blabbering about?
Who is there to know 100%?
“We” can never realize that directly and “we” can never know.
The belief in a separate individual is dropped or not dropped by Oneness.
It is not done by “you”. It is not done by “Me”.
It is done.
Love 🙂
Cheers
tan
If a method enforced duality, then wouldn’t performing the method after “direct, nonconceptual realization” give rise again to the false belief in duality?
What I infer from Bob and others in these podcasts is that, with “direct, nonconceptual realization” comes the recognition that the method doesn’t have and has never had any bearing upon that realization. How could it?
Then, if the method has no bearing on the “direct, nonconceptual realization,” it can’t help or hurt prior to such realization.
What I also infer from Bob is that “stop seeking” doesn’t mean “stop doing.” Upon realizing the truth, there might still be activities typically associated with seeking (yoga, meditation, etc) but there’s a realization that they’re just happening and there is no associated goal.
Q: Is there someone there who can choose to accept or not accept what Tony is blabbering about in blind faith or for this matter what you are blabbering about?
A: No there isn’t.
By the way, I didn’t say Tony is speaking out of blind faith. He obviously is coming from a knowing. What I said was his teaching style ( this ‘bee in his bonnet’ issue ) is sprouting out a continuation of blind faith in many of the seeming others who listen to him.
Q: Who is there to know 100%?
A: No one.
Q: “We” can never realize that directly and “we” can never know.
A: True, because the realisation IS that there is no one.
Q: The belief in a separate individual is dropped or not dropped by Oneness.
It is not done by “you”. It is not done by “Me”
A: Totally agree !
🙂
DM: If a method enforced duality, then wouldn’t performing the method after “direct, nonconceptual realization” give rise again to the false belief in duality?
S’Mu: No, because the illusion has been seen through and no method can undo that.
But anyway, that’s exactly what I’m saying… the method CANNOT enforce the ILLUSION of duality. Once the method has done its job it is transcended. There is no more use for it, nor can it undo the shift into undistorted SEEING.
By the way, I never said a method enforced duality. That’s what Tony is saying!
DM: What I infer from Bob and others in these podcasts is that, with “direct, nonconceptual realization” comes the recognition that the method doesn’t have and has never had any bearing upon that realization. How could it?
S’Mu: In some cases a method has proven to be helpful (for NO ONE of course because it’s all oneness). For example, the way a mantra works is that it is repeated and repeated. After a while there is a ‘paradigm shift’ in which there is a direct NON-CONCEPTUAL realisation that there is a PURE SEEING watching a mind mechanism which has no independent nature repeating a mantra. Once this is seen then the illusion that the self is this ‘mental voice’ has been shattered once and for all.
By the way, sitting in a group and getting pointers from someone is a ‘method’ also. Bob uses that method, Tony uses that method… lots of teachers use that METHOD. Methods are ok.
DM: Then, if the method has no bearing on the “direct, nonconceptual realization,” it can’t help or hurt prior to such realization.
S’Mu: Method or no method it doesn’t really matter. Just don’t get all evangelical about ‘no method’. Oneness sometimes uses a method as a tool on itself, other times it doesn’t. There’s no rule.
DM: What I also infer from Bob is that “stop seeking” doesn’t mean “stop doing.”
S’Mu: Bob is a great teacher who is very balanced. When Bob says ‘stop seeking’ he means ‘stop looking in the thoughts’ for the answer. This includes NOT ‘setting up camp’ on the THOUGHT ‘there is no me’. The only possibility that leaves is to abide as SOURCE. And that’s spot on.
On the other hand some other teachers (not all of course) say ‘stop seeking’ but seem to have too many people walk out after reading their books and doing there courses firmly ‘setting up camp’ around the THOUGHT ‘there is no me’. They’ve settled in, set up tent, got all comfortable around their concept, got the fire going, feet up, munching on their baked beans. And their now ready to tell everyone about it.
DM: Upon realizing the truth, there might still be activities typically associated with seeking (yoga, meditation, etc) but there’s a realization that they’re just happening and there is no associated goal.
S’Mu: Well, the seeking will be over. But yes…. upon realising the truth, life just carries on…. NATURALLY.
Sunyata Mu, you talk from a place of knowing. Perhaps Cameron could do an interview with you.
How about it Cameron?
I think that Sunyata Mu has slipped in a very cruical point here when he says:
“..sitting in a group and getting pointers from someone is a ‘method’ also. Bob uses that method, Tony uses that method… lots of teachers use that METHOD..”
Every communication of non-duality is by default a method. A ‘description’ is also a subtle method in that it involves a descripTOR and a descripTEE and the imparting of information or direction – a phrase like: ‘it can be seen that….’ is a subtle directive. IT’S ALL METHOD – and the most subtle one is the method of ‘no method required’.
S’mu, you write “After a while there is a ‘paradigm shift’…” This is something I have yet to come to grips with. Here’s why:
Bob and others explain that there is only one moment, now. As such, realization cannot occur at some point in the future. Doesn’t setting up one’s current situation to attain enlightenment in the future by practicing some method reinforce the false belief in both time and the existence of a separate entity that is doing the practice.
The reason I haven’t come to grips with this concept yet is because I still don’t understand where the continuity of events comes into play. The idea of a filmstrip and projection on the screen that teachers like Bob and Ramesh Balsekar use is fine until you take it a step further and recall that the individual frames of the filmstrip are snapshots of moments IN TIME. The explanation was given in one of the podcasts when one listener asked how it is that we see people grow older. Because I didn’t really grasp the explanation, I can’t relate it here.
The question is: How is it that if there is only the present moment, it >appears
(The last bit of my post got chopped off due to use of the greater-than symbol.)
The question I have is: How is it that if there is only the present moment, it *appears* there is a historical succession of moments and, with that, an implication of future moments with continuity from one moment to the next?
Hi DharmaMike,
It IS only Now.
All thoughts, all happenings can ONLY happen in the Now.
If we agree to meet at a certain ‘future’ place ‘tomorrow’ at 5.28 pm….. in that instant when we meet at 5.28pm…. it will be Now.
You will be 1 day ‘older’ then but it can only be the Now.
The next day when you remember our meeting of the previous day… when is that THOUGHT of our meeting the previous day occurring?
It can only happen in the Now right?
Each thought CAN ONLY happen in the ‘razors edge’ of Now.
…that’s where thoughts happen. They CAN’T happen outside of the Now.
A thought about yesterday is a THOUGHT which can only occur NOW.
A thought about tomorrow is a THOUGHT which can only occur NOW.
Actions, also, can only ACTUALLY happen in the Now.
That’s where actions happen, that’s where everything happens. There isn’t anything that doesn’t happen in the Now.
That whole ‘filmstrip’ of occurences only ever happened in the Now.
And any THOUGHT about an occurence …. THAT THOUGHT…. can ONLY happen Now.
And when you turn 65. In THE INSTANT that you blow out that candle, where will you be? NOW right? The body will look different… but it will be Now.
And when there is a nonconceptual knowing which occurs in DharmaMike next saturday morning at 7.32 am… were will ‘he’ be…. in the Now.
Try this…
Think about something that happened to you yesterday.
As that thought happens, are you actually in yesterday?
Of course not…. that thought CAN ONLY HAPPEN in the Now, right?
It’s a THOUGHT about ‘yesterday’ which is, and CAN ONLY occur in the Now.
Is it ACTUALLY possible to go back to yesterday RIGHT NOW? Of course not.
So the past is actually JUST A THOUGHT…. it’s always Now.
Alright, now think about something that you’d like to do tomorrow.
As that thought happens, are you actually in tomorrow?
Of course not…. that thought CAN ONLY HAPPEN in the Now, right?
It’s a THOUGHT about ‘tomorrow’ which is, and CAN ONLY occur in the Now.
Is it ACTUALLY possible to go forward to tomorrow RIGHT NOW? Of course not.
So the future is actually just a THOUGHT…. it’s always Now.
…. and of course, ‘tomorrow’ in the ‘future’ at 5.28pm…. where will you be?
In the Now!
So RIGHT NOW there’s this seeming person who thinks he’s not one.
He goes to see a nondual teacher.
He has some troubles ‘getting it’.
In the instant, AS those thoughts are happening that he is ‘not getting it’ it’s the Now… because thoughts can ONLY happen in the Now right?
Then the nondual teacher throws some good pointers at him and he’s starting to ‘get it’.
In the instant, AS those thoughts are happening that he is ‘starting to get it’ it’s the Now… because thoughts can ONLY happen in the Now right?
Then ‘FINALLY’! One day…there is a realisation that what was taken to be him isn’t and that there is only IT.
IN THAT INSTANT, IT WILL BE NOW.
This ‘paradigm shift’ (say for the sake of this example) happened on a saturday.
On the Wednesday previously he was still not ‘getting it’.
On the Thursday he was starting to ‘get it’.
But ALL of those happenings… AS THEY HAPPENED can ONLY happen in the Now.
So YES, Realisation CAN ONLY occur in the Now.
And of course this ‘getting it’ business is not a good description for it because I can tell you now there isn’t anything new you need to ‘get’. If it was new it wouldn’t be IT.
The thing is CHANGE HAPPENS. But it can ONLY happen in the Now.
When you were 5, where were you?… in the Now right?
And Now, as you sit at your computer and THINK about when you were 5…THAT THOUGHT can ONLY happen in the Now right?
When you were 15, where were you?… in the Now right?
And Now as you sit at your computer and THINK about when you were 15…THAT THOUGHT can ONLY happen in the Now right?
In THE INSTANT when you blow the candles out on your cake as you turn 65 where will you be?… in the Now right?
And Now as you sit at your computer and THINK about when you are 65…THAT THOUGHT can ONLY happen in the Now right?
CHANGE HAPPENS ( you couldn’t stop change happenning if you tried!!! ) …there IS a continuity of events…. but….. it is ALWAYS Now.
You asked… ” Doesn’t setting up one’s current situation to attain enlightenment in the future by practicing some method reinforce the false belief in both time and the existence of a separate entity that is doing the practice.”
As far as the illusion of time goes… get clear about it. Then it won’t be an issue anymore.
With regard to ‘enlightenment’…. it’s no use sitting there with THE THOUGHT that ‘there is no me’ (which is just further MISIDENTIFICATION with THOUGHT) and not get to that NON-CONCEPTUAL KNOWING that ‘there is no me’ just because there is a fear that ‘you’ will reinforce the ‘me’…. becuause by settling for the intellectual THOUGHT that ‘there is no me’…. guess what has happenned?
There is still a SEEMING stuckness in separation.
The Unborn is PRIOR to ANY projection which emanates from it. As Bankei said,
” What we call a ‘thought’ is something that has already fallen one or more removes from the LIVING REALITY of the Unborn. If you priests would just live in the Unborn, there wouldn’t be anything for me to tell you about it, and you wouldn’t be here listening to me. But because of the unborn-ness of Buddha-mind, it readily reflects all things that come along and transforms itself into them, thus turning the Buddha-mind into thought.”
And I’ll just add a little comment of my own at the end of that…
Enlightenment is not as simple as you think….
it’s much simpler than that!
all the best,
sunyata mu
🙂
see http://www.nonduality.info for more dialogue
Cameron –
Great show… keep em coming and dont ever plan them.
Questioin: what is a good nonduality book to get myself for the holidays? whats your favorite?
thanks Mike. Apart from I AM THAT, my fav advaita type books are the Ashtavakra Gita and the Avadhuta Gita. Beautifully simple.
Hi Rob,
You said….
“I think that Sunyata Mu has slipped in a very cruical point here when he says:
“..sitting in a group and getting pointers from someone is a ‘method’ also. Bob uses that method, Tony uses that method… lots of teachers use that METHOD..”
Every communication of non-duality is by default a method. A ‘description’ is also a subtle method in that it involves a descripTOR and a descripTEE and the imparting of information or direction – a phrase like: ‘it can be seen that….’ is a subtle directive. IT’S ALL METHOD – and the most subtle one is the method of ‘no method required’.”
Rob, I think we are saying the same thing. YES, it’s all method.
Method ?, simply happening
Hi Zafire. Totally agree: Asleep – awake. Freewill – no freewill. Method – no method. It’s all simply happening…
Cameron,
Any luck with the John Wheeler show?
I miss having pointers to listen to. Even if the same things are being said, it helps to keep it all fresh in the mind.
If all these Advaita “Gurus” have nothing to teach why do they all sell cd’s as opposed to giving out free podcasts?
corey
here are some big chunks of free talks. enjoy: http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=elysha&hl=en
there is a possible show in nz, a very juicy one indeed. maybe we’ll see you here one day cameron… cheers!
Next to the book “I am That” I found the three books by Jean Dunn are also very very good (they are also transcripts of Nisargadatta’s talks).
The talks in these books are in the last years (even days) of his life when Nisargadatta is getting more & more sick (from his illness, not seekers’ questions 🙂 so he only spoke the most important stuff.
Best show ever! I listened on my iPod as I walked along the Lake Michigan beach on an unexpectedly warm November day, and I really loved the honesty, the humor, the insight. Do more like this!
It flowed!
Steve Witt … where are you, if, indeed you even are!? I would like to unnerstand your perspective on sunyata’s discussion of why what you said did not make sense. However, if you don’t exist, then your lack of response is entirely unnerstandable.
The universe within: From macro to micro. Kinda cool:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xePF62tUBW4
Hey Oxymoron:
Really, can there be less than nothing?
S-mu simply got knickers twisted over my comparing Bob and Tony, which, of you read all the rest of these comments, and certainly if you kinda get the main point, is quite funny. All good simply becasue it all IS, but all funny and ironic to worry over words.
Like any sleeping dream, tell me, does any of this stuff exist? Or not exisit? Neither, correct. One most useful aspect of this understanding/seeing is that it instantly makes all debate highly debateable as to its outcome or purpose.
So……….so it goes……and so what?
Love,
Steven Witt
Congratulations Cameron,
your way of provinig there is no free will by pointing out the moment one cannot ever know “how the thought is created” and that there is now possibility of telling how is it done – we are just passive in this process and nobody is ever able to control it…
…and if ever happens, only the control happens and there is stil no controller…
I am well surprised and must say, the teaching of non-duality has already bring its fruits.
– poorna brahma narayana –
qellogathi, good to see someone who gets it. I’m used to having conversations with my friends where they think I’m nuts. 🙂
it cracks me up.
O no, absolutely no(:
– If you are considered being nuts by most of your friends, it’s just the evidence of their ignorance at this point…
– its the very sense of advaitic teaching that there is no individuality and of course no mode of explaining to the worldly intellect, that all what appears is not necessarily of the reality how it is seen…
…I do not know if it is so hard to understand, but as far as I can tell is perfectly clear, there is no need of supposing the facts perceived are real, if they are just being observed as pure motion in consciousness…
…I mean, this motion in the conscious space is real as a phenomena arising in the awarness, but not real in the very meaning of this word, in its essence…
…I have found the Advaita understanding as one of the best expressions of truth. My situation is similar. I am not speaking of feeling myself as a crazy amongst normal people, but there is some immaginary wall keeping me in a distance from the mental area of the others. But offcourse, I am not separating conscously, but the others are part of my reallity just as the pure being. The diversity and multiplicity are not important anymore…
…It was a good idea to make advaita show with Bob. Gave me a lot pleasure and was really joy listening to it…
– By the way, where have you first time decided to have recorded these talks with Bob and the other fellows?
With great respect,
q.
S’Mu has a lot to say but then again
All is allowed for in the light of present awareness.
This simplicity is difficult for word addicted minds
which can only contradict them self’s.
So let the blind lead the blind
Enlightenment is not as simple as ‘you’ THINK …
… it’s SIMPLER than that.
What enlightenment ?
‘Enlightenment’, ‘Self Realisation’…. call it what you like, HAPPENS…. but it happens FOR NO ONE.
I would have to say this character is very well read but I feel from his writings that it stops there. All these words have been written in the same order by varies teachers but the mix of contradictions tells me they were not understood. Originality will always stand out.
Enlightenment is not as simple as ‘you’ THINK…
…it’s SIMPLER then that “WAYNE LIQUORMAN”
Enlightenment, Self Realisation… call it what you like, HAPPENS…
but it happens for NO ONE. “TONY PARSONS”
Well that IS bizarre… because they happenned in this SEEMINGLY separate being.
…by the way…. what’s the ‘mix of contradictions’ that you are talking about?
Be specific.
In clarity there are no questions
good
🙂
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o08yFY4io6k
I like your insight into the problematic of enlightenment, sunyata mu.
ON THE ADRESS OF PARSONS AND MANY OF THOSE
WHO ARE “JUST THAT”…
Following what is not adressed concretely to anyone of you all, is just a comment I decided to add into your conversation:
Think the difference between Parsons and Sailor Bob must be clearly seen, to get it and to know how to distinct the svaroopa of the ordinary man and the nivritti of the realized. Offcourse, there is no contrast in the unborn reallity of both of them, but we must distinct between the experience they are living in both cases. In case of the ordinary man, there is just the vritti principle in raw, nature-like form which is unable to realise the state of wisdom. Tamas and rajas completely darkens their view to know only the processing part of “That All”.
They grasp just the proces and know only what the processing reality can build so there is no possibility to get into contact with state of Reality [which can be understood as the only part of being which can’t be ever concerned in processing] – unless they throw away their engagement in “becoming” of everyday life.
The problem of Tony Parson’s teaching is i think to any of well-prepared disciples of non-duality which are not about to lie themselves, enough evident. Tony is mixing up together different cathegories which shall not be mixed if we are interested in the attaining of mukti.
I saw Tony once, telling his disciples, that Ramana Maharshi couldn’t think seriously that there are different stages of seekers. By having seen this short peace of his talk I was suddenly perfectly clear about his wisdom-like talks. Not that I do not like what is he pointing out in every of his talks the most, because the very core of it is the same of the advaita’s. But – what there is not emphasized at least a bit is the fact that his method can be useful only for the greatest geniuses who can deeply understand there is no individuality at all so just can fall down to the unborn as it is.
Maharshi has a deep compassion also with those who had not possibility to become real jnanis or sages of perfect wisdom. Maharshi was one of the fellows of who can be without any superlative marked as the sage of nonsense, or just jnani par excellence. His realisation was just like there have been some kind of nondual wind around his body and the persons sourrounding him were [even though he was not speaking at hat time] just suddenly enlightened for the moment, day or the rest of their lives. Evidently his spoken word was also extremely full of wisdom.
Nisargadatta Maharaj himself! – the very beloved of all gurus I ever got into awareness – often used to say great blessings and felt deep respect before Maharshi even though he hadn’t ever possibility to meet with him personally. The moment I must accent very much is that despite Nisargadatta was sat-guru himself, he worshiped his guru Siddharameshwar without asking stupid questions like “why I should worship if I’m already realised and do not need to worship anyone anymore…”
I think the deep respect towards the greatest realised persons must be own for anyone of us even though we are absorbed deeply in advaitic non-duality. Fact Tony Parsons does not feel like that is a small warning…
with love, q.
greetings to Cameron, Bob and all of you.
What did he say ?
Something in adress of Ramana – like that he himself said something in very dualistic way and that it is a pure ignorance. But I am not judging him at all, just there is – for me at least – a fact, Ramana could not say anything in inadequate way cause he hadn’t been frozen in ignorance to do so. If we like it or not, thre are differences between men which can also affect our position towards advaitic understanding and realisation.
But you can ofcourse make your own opinion by seeing the short movie, which can be easily downloaded from his website – there are just few of them. I am sorry, but I do not know the exact adress I almost do not visit it at all and not remember much of it.
greetings, q.
There are a lot of apparent spiritual seekers out there who study scriptures worship their enlightened idols, past and present. they meditate and have varies practices to perform. Sometimes get a glimpse and assume they are enlightened these ‘want to be’ gurus teach to anyone who will listen, the subject do as I did and be like me, There are others who awaken , some with and some ‘without’ a history of spiritual seeking where it is seen by no one that the idea of achievement at any level is a laughing matter
Hi guys,
Zafire….I know the syndrome you are talking about… seekers who get caught into a hopelessly dualistic religious system which actually inhibits their chances of awakening to what is ALREADY HERE as clear as day.
And I hear it when guys like Tony Parsons warn against the above syndrome. BUT, my point throughout this whole thread has been that, in this well intentioned warning against the above syndrome there can be… not in all cases, but the majority of cases… a total rejection of any spiritual method at all.
And my point has been that this blanket ‘all spiritual methods propagate the illusion’ attitude can backfire by allowing the ‘separate seeker delusion’ to stay intact by giving it the ‘safe harbour’ of a useless intellectual understanding.
Zafire, I agree with you. You said, “There are those who awaken , some with and some ‘without’ a history of spiritual seeking where it is seen by no one that the idea of achievement at any level is a laughing matter.”
It’s true, in some cases, there has been no seeking period, but this is rare. In most cases there has been a period of seeking and probably a spiritual method. And YES, what a joke that seeking and any method at all had to actually take place!… because when seeking comes to and end it’s realised that, as you say “….it is seen by no one that the idea of achievement at any level is a laughing matter.”
But the fact that the seeking DID occur doesn’t mean that it continued for the whole life of that biological unit. Not all seeking gets caught up in the hopeless syndrome which I first mentioned at the beginning of this reply.
Even Nisargadatta had his period of seeking, but boy oh boy didn’t he transcend it? ! Sailor Bob had his period of seeking, so too did John Wheeler, so did Sunyata Mu, so did Ekhart Tolle, so did Adyashanti, so have many… but the thing is that in all those cases the seeking came to an end.
Much of this thread has been fuelled by my pointing out the difference in results from different nondual teachers. Namely the difference between an intellectual pseudo-awakening as opposed to a DIRECT KNOWING awakening.
I’m just been warning against the subtle ( yet TOTALLY altering) shifts in Advaita which I see occurring which are creating something which LOOKS JUST LIKE ADVAITA BUT ISN’T.
By settling for the belief (THE THOUGHT) ‘there is no me’ the ‘Unspeakable LIVING Truth’ is swapped for a DOGMATIC BELIEF SYSTEM. This is not unlike the fallen state of contemporary ‘Christianity’.
Those who are just settling for the thought ‘there is no me’ instead of the DIRECT KNOWING are unwittingly setting up a dogmatic BELIEF/FAITH BASED so called ‘Advaita’ which goes under the name of Advaita… BUT ISN’T ACTUAL ADVAITA AT ALL.
That’s how belief/faith systems sneak in and USURP control of the ACTUAL LIVING truth. They enforce a THOUGHT BASED version of the truth by giving it the SAME NAME as the ACTUAL truth… Therefore tricking the seekers into DOGMA. And the ones pushing this intellectual so called ‘Advaita’ are equivalent to the dogma ridden pharisees and priests which Jesus spoke out against.
Actual LIVING truth is NOT a THOUGHT.
It INCLUDES thoughts, but is PRIOR to thought.
IT IS UNBORN.
love to you all,
S’mu
Exactly that was my intention to describe, sunyata mu.
I must agree with what you mentioned as the syndrome of “no me”, which is often misunderstood by most of neo-advaitins as the real authentic knowing, and present awareness – WHICH CAN OCCUR ONLY AFTER some fight, when all the tricks of individual enetity where defeated…
But at the end I must stand together in the crowds of those who had already been looking the enlightenment so long and desperately, so that the inner Self could finally say its own statement – there is no enlightenment at all except of direct seeing through the fact, only what is is a fake… so take off your guns and all your “becomings” – you cannot become something else, even if you had defeated all the world. Only after right discrimination and non-compromising way of jnana there is the mistake of suggestivity of becoming discovered in the (so called legal) light of experience.
Sunyata mu is speaking from the experience which cannot be supposed to be dualism. I mean, the traditional ways of ancient advaita principles would surprise many of those who suggest, that systeme of non-duality is just the blind arguing “there is no seeker, no enlightenment and so on…” – But I do on the opther side agree with that statement, but not in the way that it’s usual.
Yes, Nisargadatta have been heard to speak of his enlightenment proces such as a period, which define his past as ignorant and the non dual future, where there was no Maruti at all anymore… So there is a small glimpse or lightening as a peak of the proces, in which the whole individuality is swallowed by the awareness. Ofcourse we would be absolutely wrong and driven to the heel of dualistic concepts claimin that the enlightenment mean somethin like “building up the Self” what is totally carazy idea. In that part, there must be taken seriously what Nisargadatta, Maharshi or Sailor Bob are speaking about.
Taht is the reason I am so glad beeing here among those, who understand such a subtle and not understandable thing.
q.
with deep respect
poorna brahma narayana
Forgot to mention a simple sentence from Sankaras scriptures: “The svaroopa is not averse with nature of avidya” – that svaroopa itself can’t in any case be supposed to be the secret jewel of advaita’s… svaroopa is the Self of each one of us… – but there are many of ignorance and also many of wisdom. The method of advaita is just the principle how to recover that svaroopa from the unconscious and finally rip the duality and avidya to pieces – forEVER.
q.
The translation of Advaita I believe is to point to oneness all ‘being one’ ‘oneness being’ ‘BEING’ ‘ONE’ if this is excepted any teaching method practice is in fact a contrition. My understanding of Tony Parsons message is that he is not teaching Advaita for that very reason, but has been labelled as a teacher of Neo Advaita by those who simply do not understsnd the pure messsage that is shared and pointed to THIS being the same message that Advaita built its dogma on, as with other well meaning religions the minds simply do not get IT
Ofcourse, mind is unable of getting understand the ultimate state without any doubt about it. My own realisation can be described as the sudden understanding, there is no method at all(: and the ‘process’ – can by any process we could immagine – can lead only to the another proces – such as karma is leading to another karma – no matter how pure can be – what is my argument to the believers of karmic point of view. Absolutely agree with Bob that is no mean we could use to became what we are already. I think most of all here would agree and I have to be one with it in a very core of it. I also do not like statements of ” Iunderstand it clearly, that there is no doer, but….” which sound just bizarre(((((:
Major point of advaita to me, is the understandin beginning in Ă„ÂŤitta and ending in buddhi. This very beginning is all what can be done – if done perfectly. There is only one think what’s left – the way of nature’s following that understanding in the very deep of our being. Ofcourse it is going on completely without our separate activity or some individual will to do so. No, at that certain point there will be no-thing and no-body and no-individual entity interfering. Remains just a laugh of being LIVING non dual in the common life.
But I mean, would be grat mistake to think there would be such a laugh without having seen clearly that certain beginning – only upon which was the laugh based.
Greetings,
q.
Hi Cameron and everyone else,
Don’t know how many of you are aware of a virtual 3D ‘world’ (metaverse) on the internet called ‘Second Life’ http://secondlife.com/
It’s a 3D Metaverse in which you have a digital ‘avatar’ with which you travel throughout the Metaverse. You communicate with each other live, by typing. It’s an interesting new opportunity for people all over the world to communicate.
The whole Metaverse has been built by its inhabitants and if you were to scale it up it would currently be twice the size of Manhattan. And because it has been built by its inhabitants it has everything that the phenomenal universe has… from red light districts at one end of the scale…. and shopping centres and university campuses …. to temples at the other end of the scale.
There are currently about 10 copies of existing ‘real world’ Tibetan Temples in there. There are also a few Zen temples that I know of.
I’m attracted to the potential of a metaverse such as Second Life because I think it is a great way to communicate with others who have the same interests… without geographic distances getting in the way. It is possible to hold Nonduality Q&As in there or even satsang.
If you’re interested in meeting me in there, just go to http://secondlife.com/
and join. It doesn’t cost anything, all you need to do is download the software so you can access it via your computer. Once in ‘there’ you’ll be able to find me by doing a search on my name, Sunyata Mu.
Have a nice now,
S’mu
🙂
Smu, yeah I’m in SL somewhere. I think my nick is Cameron Switchblade. Haven’t really been in there for 6 months or more though. Signed up to check it out a year ago. Havent really had the urge to go back in yet though.
Hi Cameron,
If you could ask you, what was the reason of Bob’s refusnig to take part in the next shows? Haven’t been there any comment from his side? Not at all I am missing the guru, but I am just curious about the official reason. (I might silently guess.)
Another question – is there any possibility of your visiting central Europe in the future? I know you are not planning but for the instance…
Q, Bob just got bored with the show. There’s only so many times you can answer the same questions from the same people each week before even the guru runs out of things to say. He’s been doing it in his living room for 30 years but it’s a new stream of people all the time, so it’s a different vibe.
Re coming to central Europe – I’d love to. Get 50 people to put $100 into my bank account and I’ll be there. 🙂
Cameron is therefore admitting to being what is known as a “podcasting prostitute.”
But hey, it’s just happening ….
I’m fairly new to all this stuff and spent the entire weekend listening to all of these podcasts. Bob or no Bob (no pun intended), the shows are all great. I espeicially enjoyed this one (#28) with Cameron and Steve. The spontaneous exchange of ideas was exhilarating. Any plans for another show anytime soon?
~A mirage is not real, but yet we see it.
Thanks Silent Mind. Yes there is another show scheduled for next week but I need people to join me on it! Check out the latest post of the blog for details.
Thanks for your really funny and helpful podcasts! How do we access the first 25 podcasts? I don’t see them listed on the homepage.
Thanks and hi to Bob and Eliot and Barbara–Carol in Santa Cruz
Hi Carol, the easiest way is to plug this address into itunes (itpc://advaita.thepodcastnetwork.com/feed/).
Or go to Yahoo (http://tinyurl.com/y8nsgo).