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The Advaita Show #023 – "I Am That… BUT"
Show? What Show?
March 5, 2006Bob Seal's Advaita Toon Shop
March 12, 2006The Advaita Show #023 (MP3 – 15MB – 43min)
>LISTEN TO THE ADVAITA SHOW HERE
Finally… we’re back. Special guest host Steve from San Diego and regular guest host Eliot. This week we talk about boredom, we get serious about depression and suicide, and we have pointed interjections from Bobannanda’s wife and stepson! It’s The All-Singing, All-Dancing, Hardest Working Advaita Podcast In The World!
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93 Comments
Great show…, was beginning to panic and chew off my own elbows.
QUESTION: Most of this advaita stuff makes sense to me and brings “me” to a full stop, a kind of choiceless awareness that for years I was reading about in Krishnamurti`s books but could never quite get.
The simlicity of bobs pointers makes me see that “it is all that” etc a kind of wide open awareness, a knowingness without knowing anything, but what makes no sense to me is the suggestion that outside of awareness nothing exists, for example when one goes to sleep at night the world dissapears or if you close your eyes and rest in awareness the body dissapears. What sort of a bizzare suggestion is this?
I recognise that I am not thought but am what remains when thought stops, this is a simple but profound change in perception, and I can understand to a point that the world including my body is just a memory when it is not in awareness but surely this donst mean it dosnt exist until I percieve it?!
recently in the ATTD newsletter a ques was asked about the difference between making a choice and choices happening. all this in advaita that “Life is happening”, “choices happen”, “thinking happens” but there is no ‘body’ who is living, no ‘one’ is thinking and no ‘one’ can choose, but isn’t there someone – a part of the the whole which has identified with the illusion – which brings me to my last weeks question which cameron skipped “‘concept’ of soul/supersoul; atma/paramatma; nisargadatta’s I-am-ness vs THAT. We see this concept of the ultimate reality bottled into an individual body-mind being. Is this the ‘part’ of the ‘whole’ that is conscious and identified with this world. my question is does a part of this impersonal that exist in each dreamed being as a ’soul’? does one need to identify with this before discovering the ultimate, i.e is it a pre-requisite or a diving board to reach “THATâ€?
so in some way isn’t that/ intelligence awareness doing everything???
regards
ravi
india
please try and do the show every week
Isn’t there a common misconception that advaita/non-duality is the opposite of the dvaita (duality) philosophy. If that were so wouldn’t that make advaita a concept in and about duality???
It all seems just one whole:
1) Karma Yoga : “ A man’s duty done, no matter how badly is better than doing another man’s job skillfully†(The Bhagvad Gita)
The Advaita equivalent: “ Just live your life no matter what happens because nothing ever happens to any ‘Oneâ€
2) Bhakti Yoga: “ There exists only one God head that one must constantly be mindful of eg. Krishna…â€
The Advaita equivalent: Just be with THAT all the time, Be self-aware
So isn’t it right to say that this all dual/ non-dual is all just ONE and that’s IT ???
Is this right???
Comments please
Regards
Ravi
Bangalore
Re: Depression
I come from a long line of depressed non-entities. Your coverage of the subject was excellent. I must say that my lifelong depression ended in one instant. It is difficult to be depressed when living in the present moment. Other thoughts are few and passing. Medication, therapy and a trip to see Bob are starters, but inner dedication to seeing is a personal responsibility. The mind must be receptive, so medical intervention comes first.
Guys,
as a long time sufferer of depression I second what Gary offered above … please, dear friend, get some professional help. I know what it is like, having spent decades mulling over various ways to end it … bottom line, I just never had the stones to do it … and now, with the Understanding flowering thanks to Bob, it seems there IS light at the end of the “seeming” tunnel and this time it is not the train.
This stuff … “non-duality” … needs a strong foundation, at least so it seems.
Thanks Cameron and Bob … that was great.
Anyone wants to talk about this stuff is welcome to call or write …I have nothing to teach (I leave that to Bob) but I CAN share what has occurred in “my dream.”
Currently I like to consdier what I call “my life” as a waking lucid dream. It contains a lot of Drama, sound, and fury … emotionally charged and as real as can be when it is. All that is left here is to keep looking … as Eliot points out.
Belief in me is the culprit … and I gotta keep investigating so long as there is a residue of that. Pretrending I am “there” won’t cut it.
end of rant … guess ya didn’t get ridda me after all dougie!
Your Obedient Annoying Servant,
charlie the haze
(or whatever the bleep just wrote all that)
-alternative to suicide for the seeker-
Whenever suffering arises there can be practices of various sorts that can (blessedly) arise to cut into it, and then it can be seen for what it actually is … a movement of mental energy, subtle thoughts. Habits of thought-forms that can be really destructive (I hate her, I want this to be different, this life sux i wish i was dead) etc … but ONLY if left unexamined or “bought into.”
The Ishayas’ Ascension is a practice, a technique. These are sometimes seen as “bad words” to “Pure Advaitans.” Their claim is that there is no one in reality to do or not do a practice so the practice itself can be a subtle trap keeping the idea of an entity in place.
Recently I found myself trapped in a hateful spiteful, nasty reactionary heated argument with two people who were formerly friends … and the first reaction was to blame them, “Their Ignorance.” And here I was refusing to practice the Ascension Techniques for fear they would keep me stuck. Wow. It was actually the direct opposite … NOT practicing in that moment, the thoughts that generated anger and rude behaviour, left unchecked, ran rampant, and the two people left in disgust. (I would have too; I was really shitty with them in the name of “Confrontational Non Duality.”) I later justified my jerkness by calling it “tough love.” O lawd how the ego can delude itself!!
So… This is a good example of the folly of turning an absolute Truth into a relative Belief!
Look: If there is suffering … anger, sadness, despair, lack of freedom, joylessness, hot-tempered-ness … for God’s sake do whatever it takes to alleviate it (barring such things as getting drunk or high on drugs which only perpetuate the issues and exacerbate them.)
Not just for your sake … for the others in your dance as well! I speak from burned bridge regretful experience learnt the hard way. But I learned. Thank God.
Shortly after that disastrous Sunday Morning I began the practice of “ascending” again with a renewed commitment, born from the pain of the loss of good friendship. I pray for the strength to continue and go through whatever coems up WITHOUT acting out or dumping on others in my space.
Please do not hear this as something wrong. In the Ultimate Understanding, clearly those two received whatever was necessary for their journey, through this organism. BUT as a good friend once suggested, “The Truth does NOT justify being an asshole!”
The bottom line here is that in my own experience over the years, Meditation … Buddhist Meditation, Vipasanna, TM, or Ishayas’ Ascension, Art of Living breathing techniques, and other practices, can dramatically relieve suffering and anger, and can also actually weaken or LESSEN the idea of a separate entity, when practiced under the competent guidance of an Enlightened Master … “Sailor” Bob has offered me a number of excellent “ways of looking” that I might have previously dismissed as bad ideas “because they are practices” … and that is simply nonsense.
If it works to alleviate suffering, why not go for it? I LOVE the Ishayas’ Ascension and I say IF there is suffering maybe it is worth a shot. How can we know the efficacy of anything unless there is a direct experience? And a fair test … consistent earnestness and commitment? To dismiss ANY possibility out of hand is foolhardy, from where I stand … which is, anything can happen in the journey and nothing, NOTHING, is right or wrong … unless we think that thought about it.
Perhaps it is ignorance itself that is perpetuated with these judgments and assessments based on nothing more than hearsay.
Try it and see for yourself, would be my compassionate suggestion. Have a look at http://www.ishaya.org/
Most of the the above was originally posted at http://www.awake-now.org
QUESTION
Could Bob explain in more detail what he means by deliberate not doing. This seems to presuppose there is a doer.
QUESTION
It has become much more obvious that there is no I behind anything, other than a belief. The not knowing is great fun, fresh, surprising.
Bob says follow I AMNESS, or Presence Awareness. When out in nature, or simply watching birds come to the feeders on the balcony, this Presence Awareness is much more noticeable. Would Bob advise to just continue with this. it is what Neal seems moved to do.
thankyou Bob for your many pointers a lot has settled here because of them. Many things seem to take care of themselves too and always in surprising ways usually accompanied by great laughter.
p.s.
another word for Intelligence Energy?
How about Nature? with a capital N.
I’d like to recommend this site I came across the other day and I’d love to hear people’s opinions of it too: http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/
Amusing how you got all serious when suicide came up. There’s no one here, there’s no one to die so what’s the deal. Dying at 80 or 8 who cares?
Only dream characters.
Choosing but no choser. Tens of thousands “choose” suicide every year. What does it matter? Why should a non existant entity be so concerned with living this dream/nightmare? Awareness accepts everything, no right no wrong.
“a”… and in that dream where the dream characters live, compassion, if it arises, is equally as valid as lack thereof. The characters care, that is their expression. Why do you think this show happens at all? It’s because caring is manifested in Bob. Walking around nihilistically saying “nothing matters” is not what advaita is about.
comment on suicide:
I like Robert Johnson’s reply to his clients who contemplate suicide.
He tells them something like – “Yes, go ahead! That’s a wonderful thing to do. Go ahead and do away with yourself but just don’t harm your body in any way.”
Cameron and Bob,
I wanted to praise you for the lovely and compassionate way you handled the gentleman’s depression/suicide issue.
In addition to your advice, I would also like to recommend to him Byron Katie’s book “Loving What Is”. If he can attend one of her live free appearances, or listen to any of her audio programs, it might make a difference. Katie’s method simply has you question your thoughts of suffering. I’ve seen people on stage with her crying and depressed one minute, then laughing the next, unburdened after years of stressful thinking. No guru is right 100% of the time, and Katie’s ‘work’ is no exception, but it is effective.
Her website is
http://www.thework.org
Hi James,
I didn’t read your post. When I heard it read it was shocking. I felt greatly saddened. To me, life is a great gift. I have received life-threatening diagnoses by doctors and now appreciate every day, every moment, no matter how mind or body feels.
Thanks to Bob and others, I don’t fear death much but believe we must play out our roles in this dream, whatever cards have seemingly been dealt to us. No one else can play your part, James.
If you want to discuss this further, my email is [email protected] .
Great discussion above..
Self-Realization is just that. It doesn’t necessarily change the outer “personality”. A “guru” continues to teach in his/her tradition and views expressed are culturally based. Many opinions are just that, not some absolute truth. Ultimately, all earthly infestations turn back to dust, but most cultures place some value on the individual expression. To know that ultimately this expression is transient and that a much deeper truth exists isn’t to negate living within duality. Individuals express their distress in order to find some solace. To extend ones hand is no more than seeing oneself in others. It comes natural to the “carbon based unit”..Star Trek.. It is why the word love is used to describe the potential that pervades all and yet is not…Spock Out
Nice One Cameron 🙂
aâ€â€¦ ….. “nothing matters†is not what advaita is about.
Great show. Top marks for the compassion but now……..Back to the Siliness….
Get the “filthy” old man to make the tea for the crew and get more of of THAT;
“No Nonsense Chick” Barbara on air.
Did she actually say.. “What’s wrong with the Bleedin’ Obvious, unless you think about It?” or did I just imagine it?
PS That’s a question :)))))
She’ll get you into the top ten :))
Karl
Second what Karl says above. Barb is the new guru for me, and I look forward to her book (probably entitled “It’s OBVIOUS you stupid man!! A chick’s guide to Advaita”).
Speaking of books a QUESTION:
I’ve just read John Wheeler’s book “Awakening to the Natural State”. In it he says he hasn’t come across anyone who “got” Advaita throughout his 30 years in the searching game through reading only; he only saw it when he met Bob and felt his “resonance”. Various other guests in the show have talked about years of searching to no avail coming to end when they met the Bobster. Does that mean this isn’t going to sink in unless I find myself a guru? Hope not, ‘cos there’s none around these parts and the air fare to Australia from Scotland’s a bitch!
Dear Graeme
a live conversation over the telephone with Bob or John Wheeler or any other who is ‘clear’ will suffice.Its a lot cheaper than air travel and the immediate contact and interchange will directly point to ‘that’.
Enrique
Many thanks for that advice – a Scotsman’s favourite adjective is “cheaper” 😉
Graeme
“There is no ‘I’… BUT… I am THAT.”
“Stay with the fact of your own being.”
“You are aware right now.”
Well, after looking at this for a while, it has become my belief that the difference between Bob and me is that Bob takes himself to be “THAT”, while I take myself to be a person/ego. Both views are equally incorrect. The advice is to stay with “I AM”, even though “I AM” sounds like a primary sense of being a ‘self’ (‘Self’). A sense of presence or being IS A sense of SELF!
What looks possible from here, is that this “I AM” sense is the human body’s instinctual sense of self. The psychological ego may not be the only sense of self. If that is true, then Bob has stopped identifying with the psychological ego, and has put all of his trust into being another ‘self’ that he feels. Feeling you are something is just as mistaken as thinking you are something.
You must have attained the understanding that you are THAT from one of the five senses, thoughts or feelings! There is nothing else! Feeling and thinking are telling you what you are, and you’re still believing one of them.
That sense of self has created this concept of ‘awareness’ that ‘you are’. You define this ‘awareness’ as something you already are, and something that is absolutely necessary. It is only a concept, it points to nothing real.
This matters because it is so rare for seekers to ‘attain’ the ‘understanding’. People are going through 30+ year miserable searches. Sure, you could say that we now have better teachers and pointers, but it is still SO important to make sure you’re not wasting your time. If this is some kind of rare state that can only be achieved occasionally through live “pointing”, we need to know.
There is no ‘I’, full stop. Comments? Or is this all just appearing in front of THAT?
QUESTION??? Got your attention, Cameron? Bob, I am aware of presence-awareness yet cannot always identify with it as what I am. Besides, wouldn’t identifying with something objectify it? Isn’t it better to adopt the Buddhist phrase, “Nothing whatsoever should be clung to as ‘me’ or ‘mine'”? Thanks for helping us end our confusion.
Richard
Scottish advaita…I luv it. “I am” sounds just scrumptious when read with a Scottish accent, laddie. Good on ye…
Now for that Barbara lassie…she done got it, boys and girls..she done got it.
Never mind the fellows now…only pay attention to the girls. We know.
Vicki Woodyard
hey Bobbananda,
Ya think maybe when the female “aspect” takes over the world might actually work?
Men make war, women make love. God love ya, Barb. Keep on slinging those terse teasers our way, hey? U2 Vicki!
Living is fun when there’s GIRLS!
Cameron I can see it now in lights . . . No 1 Podcast!
THE BOB N BARB SHOW!
The Advaita comedy duo.
The One and only . . . Non-Duality Show!
love:)
One comment about depression. I have lost both daughter and husband to cancer. I have been through the mill. What sustains me is the Self that underlies the suffering. I do not believe that advaita is all beer and skittles. Like anything else, you must go the distance before anything real happens.
Cameron and Bob are demystifers of the first water. Who doesn’t love a good advaitic chuckle….and until I found the podcast, it was hard to find. And Barb, well, don’t get me started. She is the wind beneath somebody’s wings….
Vicki
Ahem…I meant to say “demystifiers,” but I left out the “i.” Quite humble of me actually 😉
Bobananda says the answer is not in the mind. So, what IS in the mind? Everything seen, heard, touched, tasted smelt, thought, felt, is mindstuff, including what the apparent ‘you’ is reading right NOW.
So, what is NOT in the mind? The only thing not in the mind is what the mind is in.
Congrats by the way on another great show. It was a fine mix of laughter and compassionate seriousness.
Cameron asks, does charlie have a job?
No. Dang it all, NO.
Therefore … my QUESTION is …
Does anyone have a job for me so I don’t have to keep avoiding the crush of boredom by ranting hereabouts and on my website?
I am highly qualified in nothing whatsoever except … hell, I can’t think of a single thing.
But I can type and talk … sometimes … and there is still a lot of vitality in the almost 70 year old frame and form … hmmm anyone got any ideas how a certified nonexistent linguistically challenged non-person can make a dang living to keep food and fuel and a roof and nice warm beds and blankys available?
Perhaps I could apply for a job as the world’sldest gigolo … I, like Bob, would never require such enhance,emts as viagra :-)) … It could be a good gig for me, since Bob is disqualified (just ask Barb, she flat forbade it, i thought he could do quite well!)
What do YOU think, Vicki? Could I make it as an audio engineer? Or should I stick with the gigolo plan?
that was “worlds oldest gigolo” … like i said i can type SOMETIMES 😐
Charlie,
All of us old farts are unhireable while the hireable young folks are fighting wars. Why not leave the young lives alone and send the old ones into battle? Like the eskimos setting their old out to sea on an iceburg.
Anyhow isn’t the social (in-)security check enough to keep body and soul together?
With love,
Richard
that was “worlds oldest gigolo†… like i said i can type SOMETIMES 😐
Dear Charlie,
You’re not my “typo”….giggle.
When you see the Sun shining, you will understand.
comments?
Richard,
u gotta be kidding … soc security is $800 a month … try living on that anywhere except rural tennessee and even that is a challenge …
the interesting thing is, the feelings of insecurity and vulnerability that can come up to experience is clearly just the death throes of an entity no longer taken to be real or substantial. .. so the worries are not so debilitating as they once were. And they arise less and less, and have far less distracting power, as the dance goes on.
Still I guess looking for some kind of job is likely to happen … hell, Cameron will be relieved if I find gainful employment :-))
Love you too, Richard (or is that *Not* too?)
master zen,
WHO will understand?
Hi Bob and Cameron
Thanks for a great show.
There seems to be a fair amount of confusion about how to grasp this “non concept†of non duality. Cameron I want to know when we can expect your book “The dummies guide to Advaita†to be released? There are a lot of us “dummies†out there who need assistance … I will send you a photo of some money as soon as I receive my copy.
But seriously what if people were FIRST made aware of why we have a mind and basically how it functions?
If you “think†about it the brain is an organic computer (hardware) and the mind is a sort of operating system (software) which is constantly being programmed and reprogrammed throughout life to cope with ever changing situations and conditions. Basically it’s a very complex database which is constantly being fed data via the senses which it cross indexes with stored memories (to which our emotions are linked) in order to cope with this new information. Once the mind has some sort of reference point (memories, emotions and experiences) It can then formulate an “appropriate†or sometimes inappropriate response. The mind by its nature is dualistic since that is its function. Perhaps if we can understand this the rest will become a little more clear?
So do you think this will help? Or am I just being very silly?
Keep up the good work
regards
Paul
Loved the show, Cameron and Bob, what a complete waste of time 😉
This ego over here is not willing to make the full stop and hand over control. The illusion of having control is better than being infinite impotent.
Of course the ego wants the insights, reads the books, goes to meetings, and ‘approach’ enlightenment. It loves to scratch the itch, but it wants the itch to stay FOREVER!
And this awareness is watching it and saying oh well…
Bob Hi
Loved the show idea
Are you gonna do us another great cartoon for the advertising campaign?
I think your toons are BRILLIANT 🙂
Me and me M8s are trying to come with a menu for “The Advaita Café” You know…Some Food For Thought and others :))
Luv Karl
Sorry about the length, this’ll be my last long post.
Richard says: “I am aware of presence-awareness yet cannot always identify with it as what I am.”
There should be huge alarm bells ringing here. Firstly, I doubt you are aware of presence-awareness. Is it in your field of vision? Can you smell, touch, hear, feel or think it? Or do you have some kind of psychic sixth sense that allows you to perceive presence-awareness? I put it that you’re imagining that you’re aware of it, but it depends what you currently define it as and what you’ve been told to define it as. Now you have to IDENTIFY with it, to experience what Bob does. hmmmm?
Stan says: “So, what is NOT in the mind? The only thing not in the mind is what the mind is in.”
What the mind is ‘in’ would be totally conceptual. The mind has made up some object that everything needs to be ‘in’. The thoughts, seeing, hearing or any sensations do not need to be ‘in’ or ‘on’ something. That is the mind conceptualising your actual experience and putting it with something else. Without the thought, is there any ‘in’ or ‘on’, for the mind to be?
Have you noticed that awareness is admittedly NOTHING? It’s not a large jump to admit that maybe it doesn’t exist. Even if you ARE THAT, you agree that all of your perceptive faculties are physical human faculties, right? Seeing comes through the human eyes, (tactile) feelings come through sensors on the skin, all these things come through the nervous system. “Awareness” doesn’t have any sensory faculties. So where is the sense of presence, where is the sense of ‘being’? The human organism has the sense of ‘self’. ‘You’ don’t have a true nature, the human being is experiencing a feeling of having a true nature, or a feeling of oneness, or ‘being’.
Seekers trust nonduality teachers because the teachers are right about the ego being a ‘phantom’. In philosophy, we’d say that nonduality provides us with excellent criticisms of individuality and free-will. However, nobody then questions the other side of it. It’s seen as the paradox that will one day be solved. Religions do this. They tell their seekers to ignore the bits that don’t make sense in the hope that one day it will. ‘Just wait until you are experiencing what we’re experiencing, then you’ll agree.’ I’m sure I would agree, if I was in this nondual state. QUESTION: Aren’t sages taking a sense that they get from their psychosomatic organism and believing it goes for the entire universe?
Dear Graeme,
doesn’t Advaita teach the Adi- Guru (fundamental/Only Guru) is within?? so why worry. Ramana Maharishi did not have a guru. so all hope is not lost
rgds
ravi
here is a thread from the blog … http://www.awake-now.org/blog.html
might be good for a gigglespittle vicki?
……………………………………
thursday, march 9, 2006
~ can IT be got from a book? yes. (yes???) ~
To John Wheeler …
John, W.J. in Australia is home
it is your book
you da man, O nonentity john-w
I Love You
more than word can say or heart can feel
I Love You
…………………………………………………
Chazzy:
Of course “IT” cannot be gotten from a book — anymore than the moon can be had from the finger pointing to it. If you moon a passerby in the moonlight, no matter how pale and bright your glorious backside appears, it has no intrinsic luminosity. It may emit many things, but it has no capacity to emit so much as a particle of light. To think that my book brought anyone home is about as ridiculous as thinking that one could get a tan by basking in the presence of your pale, white arse! %^)
Love,
John
……………………………………………..
well …..
yee ha
i love ya
moons arses and all
another treasured idea bites the dust
looking at the moon long enuf could i disappear up me own arsehole??
u still da man
(i ass-ume this stuff ain’t for the blog? too bad … i am giggling inside)
Love ya
Charlie
……………………………………
Why not blog it? It may be good for a chuckle or two!
John
………………………………………….
Done!!! And, I LOVE it when you [and Bob and Cam] give me the finger!!
…………………………………………….
hereis the note that started all this 🙂 … Dear Charlie, I must thank you for the leads you provided with recommendations for reading Shining in Plain view by John Wheeler and a recommendation from your blog, Perfect Brilliant Stillness by David Carse. Tonight after reading ‘The one-two punch’ in John Wheeler’s book, and closing the book, turning the light off and really investigating the belief in the existence of a separate self, in relation to the many ideas there have been here about betterment – the sudden realisation – to whom would this betterment apply?
Couldn’t be found – penny dropped. So very simple as to be overlooked so very often. Will this stick, who knows? But thanks heaps.
……………………………………
de nada … literally
sure sounds magorama though … ‘sall good.
Nadeem,
You bring up some excellent points. I really hope Bob addresses them.
I cannot explain well what I mean about being aware of presence-awareness. This phrase implies the dreaded “duality” and is probably not accurate. When Bob says the answer is not in the mind- take this literally. It is prior to/beyond body, senses, and (conscious) mind. And It (or, God) is not an experience but an ever-existing, all-pervading Presence.
I can’t say how I am aware of this but at times realize a oneness with the divine. This first occurred in 1979, way before I ever heard of Bob or any other of the spiritual teachers.
Best wishes,
Richard
Hello Karl,
Re your comments about the toons.
Thanks. Good to know they hit the spot.
That’s just the way the understanding comes out here.
writing books about Advaita doesn’t come up here, just toons!
Probably a good thing as there are lots of really great books available already.
You say “Are you gonna do us another great cartoon for the advertising campaign?”
Well, If Cameron or his Bobness needs advaita cartoons for PR they only have to ask.
“The Advaita Cafe” is that a website idea you are thinking of creating?
Sounds like a great idea! If you want to contact me to talk about it off the board, send an email to [email protected]
Luv Bob
“The main trouble with the enlightenment is that whilst the ego dissolves, the identity as a soul remains intact. No longer identifying as a personal ego-bound identity, one then identifies as an impersonal soul-bound identity – ‘I am That’, ‘I am God’, ‘I am The Supreme’, ‘I am The Absolute’ and so on. This is the delusion…”
http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/library/topics/asc.htm
Worth checking-out.
Cameron, Bob,
I’d love to hear more from Barb. Any chance of getting her to join you guys one day?
Nadeem,
Have a look at
http://www.nathangill.com/
and download the pdf called Clarity
This is an account of Nathan’s so called Awakening.
The connecting with the Wrong “I’ seems to be quite common.
Any Experience is just an experience. full stop.
For example in my seeming search I wanted to make Sailor Bob into my Guru until he put me straight!
By saying “Don’t you put any of that ****ing Guru crap on me!”
That sorted that out no problem!
Ya got to love the guy!
Love Ya Bob!
love:)
Nadeem,
How it’s seen here is . . .
There is No Enlightenment for a YOU.
Identifying with anything, implies a reference point, an “I”.
It all just drops away on awakening.
No-one awakens to No-thing. No-thing happens.
love:)
One day I was sitting in a cafe. There was a photo hanging on the wall of a strange monkey’s face emerging from a pool of water. The monkey’s eyes were amazing–big, bulging eyes….
After seeing this picture, I looked around the cafe. I watched as a fat man stared at a pretty girl who walked into the cafe. I watched his eyes follow her as she walked.
And I thought—whoa! SomeTHING gave us eyes through which IT observes the world. WHO is looking THROUGH those eyes? It struck me that it must be INTELLIGENT….something that created these things called eyeballs through which it sees…..And then I realized, “I” was looking through my eyes, observing the whole scene in the cafe….Who is that “I” that was looking?
Is it all the same entity, observer, essence, awareness….The monkey, the fat man, and me….? and you too?
😉
After reading through these comments and questions, I see Bob has a tough job in front of him.
Thanks Bob and Cameron… Just to let you know, in the here and now, little I (body/mind) is safe, like I said, there are no immanent plans. It was great to hear how realization has helped you Cameron. I think I will come over and see Bob in the near future…. peace, James
oh wow- and thanks to the others who posted, I just read your comments. 🙂
Has this become the place for advaitans to see and be seen….lots of table hoppin’ goin’ on 😉 By the by, I am getting an advaitan butt…too much sitting with the question…”I know I am that, but”
Bob Seal says: “No-one awakens to No-thing. No-thing happens.”
You phrase it like that now but I’ve seen your fantastic cartoons, Bob. If there is no reference point, then it is specifically not true that “I AM THAT”. You are NOT “presence-awareness”, not “no-thing”, not “everything and everywhere”. Where do you get your sense of oneness from?
“The connecting with the Wrong “I’ seems to be quite common.”
“Wrong I”? There is NO right “I”. Humans – and some animals – may have a basic instinctual sense of self that is programmed into their brains. That would be another wrong “I”. Advaita is about understanding that the “Self” is everything/”no-thing”. The link I gave DOES mean to include nonduality – yes even this type – as a delusion. A remaining feeling of self, combined with this meaningless no-thing ‘awareness’ concept creates the belief that “I AM THAT”. FACT: “I AM THAT” is an expression of identity. http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/library/topics/asc.htm
Thought fucks everything up really.
~ Guy Smith
http://www.guisemyth.com/
Words! Words!
The Way is beyond language.
for in it there is
no yesterday
no tomorrow
no today.
Seng Ts’an, the third Zen Patriarch
or as dear gilbert tries to shout in the space of all that is, shut the fuck up.
OK. I will try 🙂 afetr all i don’t wanna annoy doug again
Hey BOB QUESTION?
If thare ain’t no Me how do “I” shut the fuck up !??!
There is an “I”, there is a soul, you are it.
That you are this human body, is the mis-identification.
The eye (I) does not usually see itself, does that mean it does not exist?
If the eye (I) was to see itself, and understand the mechanics itself, it would then understand why it does not see itself. Then would it deny it’s existence? No.
Stop bouncing concepts off of yourself to see which ones feel good.
Spend some time without the sensations of the body or mind.
Just be.
A man does not find peace, he becomes it.
Nadeem,
The basic problem seems to be trying to answer this in the duality of mind (ego).
All ideas of oneness are in the mind, it’s all concepts that the mind wants an answer to. The mind here carries on as it always has, but now it is not attached to as often as it used to be. The thoughts come and go, action takes place when it takes place and or non action takes place. But now there is a knowing that everything is as it is.
There is just a seeing as it is or not seeing as it is and awareness doesn’t give a damn what the (ego) mind thinks it sees or doesn’t see.
The cartoons just appear and are drawn here!
Before all this understanding came up, I (ego) self suffered thinking it was trying to create cartoons and it was really hardwork, now they just appear fully formed! It’s just amazing to witness this happening.
I just read a couple of articles about the Tao and Wei Wu Wei.
They give a Taoist view of all this. you might find them interesting.
The Wu-Wei Principle:
http://www.jadedragon.com/archives/june98/tao.html
Philosophy: Wei-Wu-Wei nondual action by David Loy
http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULTEXT/JR-PHIL/loy3.htm
Remember this is all fingers pointing at the moon stuff!
love 🙂
Lovely one Charlie. Spot on,”Thought fucks everything up really”
Didn’t work this is the link:
Philosophy: Wei-Wu-Wei nondual action by David Loy
http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/loy3.htm
CC to the “Bobananda Group”
Hi All,
I’ve just added an interview with Jan Kersschot – The Daydream Unmasked – (copy and paste the link into your browser address line)
http://www.advaita.org.uk/discourses/teachers/daydream_kersschot.htm
Best wishes, Dennis (Waite)
Great stuff from Jan, the author of “This Is It”
Love,
c.
master zen?
masturbate.
you’re still bouncing concepts off of yourself
Hey Charlie,
if you think “Thought” fucks everything up, then you are fucked.
cheers
Nadeem said:
QUESTION: Aren’t sages taking a sense that they get from their psychosomatic organism and believing it goes for the entire universe?
Be interested to see what his Bobness says about this question.
This is how the question above appears here:
The question asked comes from the duality of mind.
The view of the person or (sage) in the duality is seen as a question.
This Person or (sage) has thoughts which come from sensations and are resolved by an answer for the mind. (There is No sage or Person asking the question, it’s just Oneness playing a game.
Or
If it’s seen that there is only Oneness and the seeming Person or (sage) is a ripple of energy appearing in the Oneness, then the question disappears.
Oneness is the question creator and dissolver.
All questions appear in the duality.
Duality is just Oneness playing a game of asking questions.
So the answer to the question is Yes and No depending upon where the point of reference comes from. In the Duality or from Oneness.
This is all words and concepts that all!
master zen, you are still mentally masterbating…
we are all equal. you know nothing. we are the pure un-labeled, space of awareness whichi is before knowledge arises.
Aim the inquiry right back at that little thought that thinks it knows.
Your lingo and posing do not cut it. Take your images and burn them all. Every time you open your mouth you just show you are a lame duck, “quack, quack!”
What is the point of you, master zen, speaking? Who are you going to give knowledge to? Do you actually have friends you can talk normally with? What does this Fake spiritual personality get you? Full stop your ADD commentary and stick with the Being you know you Are which is before thought…
It seems to me that these responses tend to presuppose the existence of awarenenss, the truth of the pointers, which is what I’m trying to challenge. Sorry if I’m wrong about that and just not understanding it yet ;). I’d love to hear the sailor’s thoughts on it, though I can anticipate what they might be. I still believe that ‘You’ are human, as in, ALL traces of ‘You-ness’ must be from the human brain.
Dear Nadeem,
First of all the you who wants to understand is a basic mis-understanding.Second point;If you believe in the reality of this manifestation then the following should pretty much verify the ‘existence of awareness’……..
as far as ‘the existence of awareness’ and ‘all traces of you-ness must be from the the human brain’, how would ‘you’ account for the many documented cases of subjects being brain dead and having near death experiences where there was an awareness of the experience verified by medical professionls monitoring the event? you can verify these claims, just google’ near death experience-brain dead’ : } This is That… Whatever ; )
Nadeem:
Forget the Advaita philosophy. It is just an effort to describe what is experienced. The only thing that is important is for you to experience the thing that is being pointed to. Who cares if the explanation as to what is going on is correct? The bottom line is that you can eliminate personal suffering. All these questions are of the mind and as such keep the mind thinking. To end suffering you must go beyond the mind. There is no “truth”. Forget it..
Wow…..!!! I could think of hundreds of things to say….! and feel the ridicule bouncing back before it’s even typed.
Noticing the warring factions on this very site is getting a bit interesting to say the least.
Wake up….and smell the coffee…:):):) Oh…I have nothing to say that will really make a difference. Being a virgin 1st time post-ing I just want to know where I can get some sunglasses like Cameron’s…:)
(Insert something advaita sounding here)
QUESTION:
Bob, Cam, dear other guests:
What is your opinion on the below?
—
Too much fuss is made by the mind about “Enlightenment”, “Awakening”, “Liberation” etc.
The mind is imagening a beautiful state of ever bliss, gentle voices speaking in everlasting love and warmth with no anger ever and compassionate wisdom.
This is bullshit thought up and just imagination. Has nothing to with IT.
Awakening is just seeing that, there is no person behind all of this. That seeing happens by noone or the “one” – whatever is preferred as a description.
Nothing else changes. It may be similar to when one sees that clouds or thick fog are not solid. May appear like that until you come close to it for the first time and see what it is. Before that there just may have been the assumption that it was solid.
Suffering, anger, pride and the big defense mechanism that were based on the assumption that there is a person to defend, a person to be proud of or a person to be ashamed of or a person to be improved slowly fade away. They may or may not fade away because nothing can be taken as certain. It faded away for “me”. It may or may not happen. It does not matter.
In Liberation everything is included. Hate, Love. Anger, Egoism etc.
Everything is included because nothing has a real meaning anymore or can be labeled as right/wrong etc. it is seen as what it is. the one.
balance has slowly almost unrecognizably crept into this life. No one has achieved this balance and harmony. It was always there but never recognized. there is very often a sense of surprise what comes out of this mouth, what reaction or actions are happening. Things that were done before always in a specific way are seen from a different angle. That makes it so interesting and enjoyable. Freedom.
Freedom … of choice or “how spontaneous” it seems maybe, but there is no one choosing it or being spontanous.
A great story where no one knows the plot … created by Tan for the enjoyment of Tan happening in Tan without even Tan knowing.
Cheers
Bob, Cam
Forget my “question” and that long paragraph above , yawn.
save the little time you have on the show for other stuff.
cheers
quack! quack!
I’m all for Cameron and Bob winging it. Forget the doofuses (doofi) myself included, who are just postponing the inevitable trip to “I am.”
We are not the show; they are. A real question will stand out in the crowd and Cam won’t have to dig through forty pages to find it.
Vicki
By the way,
Charlie you have a good website, love the Nisardagatta page.
Bob Seal, love your cartooons, they really hit home!
Dear “A Horse”, I bought my sunnies at Venice Beach in LA a few years ago for $10 and I love them to death. Of course, I’ve also had them blessed by the guru, so now they are priceless. I’m thinking of auctioning them off on Ebay.
Looks like it’s still $10 for the unblessed model….
http://ocshades.com/product_info.php?cPath=1&products_id=174&osCsid=bb12943cc0137646ee3532d6bf9d4d56
just quacking in the mirror, dreaming he is a duck
but really nothing happens heehee
****** Dear “A Horseâ€, I bought my sunnies at Venice Beach in LA a few years ago for $10 and I love them to death. Of course, I’ve also had them blessed by the guru, so now they are priceless. I’m thinking of auctioning them off on Ebay. ******
I’ll start the bidding…:)
1 – Guru Blessed pair of Trendy-liscious sunglasses. $9.99 US
BTW — Great pictures of the you and your fellow Aussies….:)
I’ll be making my way there soon. My good friend Jean-Pierre has been, and has good things to say about Melbourne….Somewhat similar to Dallas, TX (the place I call home) … ~@~@~@~@
Till then,
I’ve been through the desert…:)
Tan: Enjoyed your view.
Nadeem: love your questions.
master zen: good to hear the cartoons resonate!
wei wu wei whooooho! :>
Some have offered the opinion that “Thought” fucks up everything.
Seems different to me here.
Thinking is just something that is happening.
If there is a “fucked up” assumption that there is a person who is doing, controlling etc. Then thinking will work under that fucked up assumption. It will appear to fuck up everything.
Same if you have the assumption that quicksand is solid. And you build a house. The construction engineers, the architect may be great. The house will still be “fucked up”.
If you still believe that quicksand is solid you may believe that the architect or engineer fucked it up.
Same if there is still the assumption that there is a “solid person” doing stuff.
There is no right or wrong about the idea that thinking is fucked up or that it is great. All that is the perfect way/gift to see the illusion as what it is.
QUESTION TO BOB-CAMERON:
Is thinking fucking things up or not?
What is your view pals on the show?
Cheers
p.s.
and by the way is there something like “thinking” really or just IT appearing as “thinking”.
dear vicky, there is no trip to IAM.
Love
t
No trip to IAM? Somebody tell Triple A(dvaita).
Bob, Gilbert, Mark, Nisargadatta, Nathan, Tony, Alexander and all those others (who are the same That I am as That I am) teach us that searching for oneSelf is preventing to see One’s Self. Alle these questions and remarks here are a proof that the searching goes on and on and on als long as there are questions, and as long as questioners keep asking…..
For years I’ve waited for that One Sentence that would blow my disbelieves. I read so many, but I kept up searching.
Bob and Gilbert succeeded in stopping me with the search.
Just Be, feel, see, hear, sense, smell and don’t let your thinking take over. And be patiënt.
Love,
Rob
The Netherlands
tat tvam asi
seeking went on so long it became a way of life that “i” could not give up … an addiction. Just the same as booze or drugs … even racing cars, and other risky shit … always seeking the next high.
There is a profound (?) insight opening for me. I am not sane. The me that thinks it is real is an insane character in a play written by a madman. So what to do? How can a character in a play do anything? It plays its nutty role.
Ouside looking in, I see the insanity. Outside looking in I see the total and absolute automaticity of the machine called charlie.
It’s time, I believe, to move into a more practical expression of who I really am (the True Self) … I really need to go out and have fun and make some money before I end up out on the street (again, it happened in the eighties and I am really not interested in an encore performance.)
The paradox of this Advaita philosophy … I do not exist *and* I am a Self, expressing … seeming to choose, seeming to decide.
So I am off to work again. Come say hello at http://www.charliehayes.net if you’d like to.
Any comment, Bob?
Love you Bob
Love you all
Yes, so it is…. Thou are That!
I asked questions (and de most important: Who am I?) for almost 15 years….
And now a Wild Bunch of Australians succeeded in me to surrender…while ‘I’ was laughing!
Rob
http://www.chakraplein.nl/in_english___.htm
Thoughts don’t fuck anything up, but the ATTACHMENT to them sure can. They’re clouds in the skylike awareness, and as such will come and go by themselves.
I’ve just finished reading James Braha’s book Living Reality. If you can’t meet Bob in person (or even if you can), get yourself a copy, it’s superb.
Stan
It sure appears that there are a lot of “persons” here who really want to be the teacher, but who claim that “IT” has happened to “them”, even while saying nothing has happened to noone!!! Seems like a bunch of “dualing ego’s, doesn’t it? I have observed this tendency arising in the so-called “me” many times…..it really is seductive and can get very subltle. BUT, any “true” advaitan (oh no, we are at risk of becoming something!!! 🙂 ) would say, “no problemo. IT IS just part of what IS. ” Maybe we should start a contest for the Best Would-be teacher! Or better yet, why don’t we just let His Bobness play the role …….ofcourse, while knowing, like all “true” advaitans, that there is no teacher or student. HEY CHARLIE, I think you got company in the luny bin!!! Don’t ya just LOVE IT!!!
I investigate my direct experience. There is clearly no ‘self’ here. Done. Now what? I genuinely see that there is no self, but the mind still has all of its tendencies. What needs to happen now?
“Thoughts don’t fuck anything up” Until they fuck something up.
Just leave them alone and they go home wagging their tails behind them. 🙂
Can’t remember the rest of this nursery rhyme!
That’s Right Stan, . . . non-attachment! best advice I’ve ever heard.
Bottom line is it doesn’t matter what thoughts do.
Just don’t attach to them or you’re in the shit.
There’s No You to attach or not, so who cares? Whatever happens, happens.
Nadeem said “but the mind still has all of its tendencies. What needs to happen now?”
The mind will continue as before.
NON-ATTACHMENT to mind! witness only. no view for or against any-thing.
Sit with That and see what comes up.
I know, I sound like a parrot on Sailor Bob’s shoulder. True. I hear it too!
Sorry, Sailor Bob this stuff is just like vomit it keeps coming up.
. . . Ok, I’ll shut the fuck up now. 🙂
…and how does the ‘attachment’ to the thoughts cease?
Nothing new comes up when I sit with it. The senses are there, thoughts are there, feelings are there. I think if it was about just sitting with it, there would be far more ‘sages’ than there are.
Nadeem.
The belief in “You” is the attachment to thinking.
The belief in “You” is the walking prison.
There is no right or wrong about that.
It may cease when the belief in you ceases. But “you” can not do this. no one can.
it just may happen.
cheers
sorry for ranting.
… still hasn’t happened… darn… Maybe I should try juggling to end the attachment… or should I buy another book from Bob?… or maybe I should write my own pointing book…
maybe you should do that. 🙂